Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

(thehistoryblog.com)

81 points | by danielam 4 days ago ago

20 comments

  • amelung 21 hours ago ago

    I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below even I can read clearly a «ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ» ‹he / she / it appears›. Even further down I read «ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ» ‹and through / per / via this›.

    • sapphicsnail 19 hours ago ago

      Papyrologists are amazing. It takes a ton of training to be able to make sense of all those fragments.

    • georgearvanitis 15 hours ago ago

      ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ … Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ… ΑΛΛΑ ΤΑ Δ ΑΜΦΟΤΕ… ΔΗΛΟΥΤΑΙ… ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ.. ΚΟΙΛΑ.. ΦΑΣΜΑΤΑ … ΓΥΙΩΝ ΟΣΣΟΝ … ΜΕΙΖΟΝΑ … ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ … ΟΥΤΕ ΩΤΑ .. ΟΥΔΑΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ …

      • amelung 2 hours ago ago

        Respect! even if I can't agree with every detail, e.g. «ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ» would require the «Υ» and the «Τ» to be quite different from the «Υ»s and «Τ»s in clearer cases, e.g. in the «ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ» we both read as such. So I would stick to «ΚΑΙΤΟΙΠΩ…».

      • jdnier 14 hours ago ago

        Not understanding Greek, I ran that through Google Translate (Greek -> English) just to see what it might say.

        > AND THIS … THE MAJOR … BUT THE BOTH … ARE MEANING … PEUSIS PAN GAR SEEMS.. OBVIOUS.. SPECTRA … OF SONGS SO … MAJOR … AND THEREFORE … NOT EVEN EARS .. NO LANGUAGE

        What form of Greek would that be? (I don't know much more than "ancient Greek" vs "modern Greek".)

        • amelung 2 hours ago ago

          > PEUSIS PAN GAR SEEMS

          I think the Greek doesn't read «ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ» but «ΠΕΥΣΗΙ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ» with «Ι», and «ΠΕΥΣΗΙ» = «πευσῃ» could be the 2nd sg. of the future of «πυνθάνομαι» ‹learn›. «ΠΑΝ» would be ‹all, every(thing)›, «ΓΑΡ» ‹namely, because (postponed)›. ‹… you will learn, everything namely …›? I don't know. – The «ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ» ‹seems, appears› is on the next line, after some missing words.

        • jdnier 14 hours ago ago

          Looking more carefully at the original image (http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/Emp...) I can see the mapping of letterforms you made. Thanks for that!

      • pseudohadamard 6 hours ago ago

        I dunno, it's all Greek to me.

        (I'll see myself out).

    • aap_ 8 hours ago ago

      Ah, you're right. "30 verses" made it sound like more than what you can see on that image. Luckily most of the papyrus is very legible! even if fragmented...

  • sapphicsnail 19 hours ago ago

    Empedocles wrote in verse. Greek scientific writings used to be written entirely in verse instead of prose. He wrote in Latin, but a cool example of something like this that survived is Lucretius' On the Nature of things (De Rerum Natura).

  • Izikiel43 21 hours ago ago

    Fun fact about Empedocles, in Argentinian Spanish slang it means the one who is always drunk

  • aap_ a day ago ago

    So is there any way to actually read it? Or do i have to buy an obscure french book? can you even buy the book? Academic publishing/gatekeeping is such a joke.

    • marginalia_nu a day ago ago

      It's in the picture, I presume. Just gotta brush up on that Koine Greek. Or if you read Egyptian hieroglyphs already, you can use the Rosetta Stone to reconstruct the Koine Greek from first principles.

      • sapphicsnail 19 hours ago ago

        It's not Koine and it's in verse.

    • addaon 21 hours ago ago

      This feels like a knee-jerk reaction. While it may be a relevant critique of some news releases about academic research… this one literally contains a thumbnail with a link to a sufficiently-high-resolution image of the document. You can read it by clicking on the only image in the article.

    • pfdietz a day ago ago

      I'm hoping in these verses Empedocles complains about crappy copper from a Babylonian merchant.

    • bombcar a day ago ago

      494 B.C.? Empedocles’ll DMCA you if you post them!

    • canjobear a day ago ago

      It will probably be processed into an edited edition and then published as a book.

    • jblitzar a day ago ago

      I mean, it's still a pretty cool discovery.

      • aap_ a day ago ago

        Probably! but how would i know?