autism researcher here. I have not yet read this study. It will not be the kind of paper that many, including myself, can read quickly and understand. Autism is a multi-disciplined science, so there is a lot to understand. However, my initial sense from reading the abstract is that this paper might be a really really big deal and incredible new resource.
General problem statement: Many different genetic variants are associated with autism, some strongly, most very weakly. Many have suspected that this plethora of genetic variants might converge onto a smaller set of biological pathways affecting neurodevelopment in ways that results in an autism phenotype or phenotypes. This has been our hope, because the alternative scares the hell out of a scientist. The saying goes that if you met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism...meaning there is a ton of heterogeneity within the autism spectrum, even if a certain set of core autism symptoms are displayed. So there was a existential crisis that there is no "autism", just a billion autisms, where your sample size is always N=1. By demonstrating evidence that many variants converge on the same biological pathways, there is hope that understanding autism is tractable.
Out of curiosity, what leads us to treat ASD as an actual single disorder, as opposed to a billion different individual neurological profiles?
I'd expect one of the things that makes this difficult, too, is that there's a missing component of the "machine" - the genetics affect the pathways, which affect (maybe?) things like signal propagation or network regulation in the brain, but the actual effect of that is on the patient's experience of consciousness, and it's difficult for someone to get more than N=1 of those via commonly accepted legal methods - otherwise, we're all just looking at the outside of the box and saying "huh, this box acts differently than that box, weird."
Which is specifically addressing what seems to be a massive and current/active struggle in the healthcare and scientific communities in terms of reconciling the vastly different experiences of people with autism who are (a) largely/entirely independent, but with genuine additional and often significant struggles, and (b) people who will never lead independent "normal" lives.
There is not an answer - there is friction and argument and emotion, and I suppose we are all waiting for things to run a course and maybe we will end up with alternative terms and sub-groups, in a few more decades of course...
Would enjoy hearing your take on it SubiculumCode!
When autism is discussed as a culmination of denovo mutations, one thing that I dont understand is how this is reconciled with the history of the species.
It seems there is a high rate of mutations, making the non-mutant ensemble incredibly fragile. How did this work in the past? Was there significant selection against mutant varieties?
@SubiculumCode, thanks for this comment and helping us understand better. Is there by chance a way to contact you about your research & expertise or would you mind contacting me using my profile info? I built https://behavior.today and would love to connect on this topic. Thanks!
I'm an aspie, and think my "version" of ASD has a large epigenetic component. I think social emotions that develop through childhood and adolescence happen through epigenetic changes that enable and disable sets of genetic material (not necessarily just genes) as the person develops. I think the physical changes that happen with puberty must involve timed epigenetic changes. I think the same thing happens with emotional development.
I don't feel shame. I don't feel deference to authority. I never developed innate lust (sexual desire); it was learned after my girlfriend initiated sex. I never had problems with peer pressure. I like getting along with other people, but I don't NEED to get along with other people.
My "problems" with empathy are primarily related to social emotions I don't feel. All my basic/mammalian emotions are fine. I cringe when I see someone stub their toe or cut their finger. I can't even watch bloody dramas on TV, because I feel uncomfortable despite knowing that it is fake.
I think epigenetic differences likely play a larger role than genetic (DNA) differences because the mutation rate of the epigenome is higher than the mutation rate of the genome. Of course, I agree that the biology of ASD (and biology in general) is very complex, so I'm sure there's a lot more going on than just epigenetic differences.
When I say "epigenetic", I'm not just referring to histone/methylation/cromatin changes to DNA, and perhaps there's a better word for what I'm trying to describe. It's my suspicion that some of the differences in my variant of ASD are not due to DNA variations, but other differences outside DNA such as RNA, prions, germ cell transposon differences, etc.
I'm interested - for reasons. Does anyone have a sense of what this study means in a practical or actionable sense?
In toto, the conclusion of the paper:
> Together, these findings define a dual-layered model of molecular convergence in ASD: convergence through shared interaction networks in the wild-type state and convergence through recurrent functional consequences of interaction rewiring in the mutant state. More broadly, this work establishes a scalable framework for systematic interrogation of the autism proteome, enables prioritization of druggable protein interfaces, and provides a rational foundation for precision therapeutic strategies aimed at restoring neurodevelopmental trajectories.
I have no grounding here. Does anyone want to have a go at teasing the meaning out?
Here’s how I’m thinking about it (still digging into the details): across genomics, it’s become clear few traits have clear traceability to a few loci in the genome.
Instead, evidence has been growing that epistasis, the nonlinear interaction between genes and other genomic regions, predominates in explanations of most phenotypes.
What this paper does is show where upstream of the genome various combinations of mutations can interact to cause damage during development, thus leading to the phenotype. Rather than correcting a particular mutation, or targeting drugs to their protein products, we may find downstream protein-protein interactions that are strong drivers of the phenotype, and hopefully find ways to prevent/reverse these effects.
I interpret it as they think they can find treatments that will course-correct the development of a child, but they're not saying anything about fixing something that's already broken.
“In an ideal world the scientist should find a method to prevent the most severe forms of autism but allow the milder forms to survive. After all, the really social people did not invent the first stone spear. It was probably invented by an Aspie who chipped away at rocks while the other people socialized around the campfire. Without autism traits we might still be living in caves.”
autism researcher here. I have not yet read this study. It will not be the kind of paper that many, including myself, can read quickly and understand. Autism is a multi-disciplined science, so there is a lot to understand. However, my initial sense from reading the abstract is that this paper might be a really really big deal and incredible new resource.
General problem statement: Many different genetic variants are associated with autism, some strongly, most very weakly. Many have suspected that this plethora of genetic variants might converge onto a smaller set of biological pathways affecting neurodevelopment in ways that results in an autism phenotype or phenotypes. This has been our hope, because the alternative scares the hell out of a scientist. The saying goes that if you met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism...meaning there is a ton of heterogeneity within the autism spectrum, even if a certain set of core autism symptoms are displayed. So there was a existential crisis that there is no "autism", just a billion autisms, where your sample size is always N=1. By demonstrating evidence that many variants converge on the same biological pathways, there is hope that understanding autism is tractable.
Out of curiosity, what leads us to treat ASD as an actual single disorder, as opposed to a billion different individual neurological profiles?
I'd expect one of the things that makes this difficult, too, is that there's a missing component of the "machine" - the genetics affect the pathways, which affect (maybe?) things like signal propagation or network regulation in the brain, but the actual effect of that is on the patient's experience of consciousness, and it's difficult for someone to get more than N=1 of those via commonly accepted legal methods - otherwise, we're all just looking at the outside of the box and saying "huh, this box acts differently than that box, weird."
Replying here to link -> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdew81wd2y8o
Which is specifically addressing what seems to be a massive and current/active struggle in the healthcare and scientific communities in terms of reconciling the vastly different experiences of people with autism who are (a) largely/entirely independent, but with genuine additional and often significant struggles, and (b) people who will never lead independent "normal" lives.
There is not an answer - there is friction and argument and emotion, and I suppose we are all waiting for things to run a course and maybe we will end up with alternative terms and sub-groups, in a few more decades of course...
Would enjoy hearing your take on it SubiculumCode!
When autism is discussed as a culmination of denovo mutations, one thing that I dont understand is how this is reconciled with the history of the species.
It seems there is a high rate of mutations, making the non-mutant ensemble incredibly fragile. How did this work in the past? Was there significant selection against mutant varieties?
@SubiculumCode, thanks for this comment and helping us understand better. Is there by chance a way to contact you about your research & expertise or would you mind contacting me using my profile info? I built https://behavior.today and would love to connect on this topic. Thanks!
I'm an aspie, and think my "version" of ASD has a large epigenetic component. I think social emotions that develop through childhood and adolescence happen through epigenetic changes that enable and disable sets of genetic material (not necessarily just genes) as the person develops. I think the physical changes that happen with puberty must involve timed epigenetic changes. I think the same thing happens with emotional development.
I don't feel shame. I don't feel deference to authority. I never developed innate lust (sexual desire); it was learned after my girlfriend initiated sex. I never had problems with peer pressure. I like getting along with other people, but I don't NEED to get along with other people.
My "problems" with empathy are primarily related to social emotions I don't feel. All my basic/mammalian emotions are fine. I cringe when I see someone stub their toe or cut their finger. I can't even watch bloody dramas on TV, because I feel uncomfortable despite knowing that it is fake.
I think epigenetic differences likely play a larger role than genetic (DNA) differences because the mutation rate of the epigenome is higher than the mutation rate of the genome. Of course, I agree that the biology of ASD (and biology in general) is very complex, so I'm sure there's a lot more going on than just epigenetic differences.
When I say "epigenetic", I'm not just referring to histone/methylation/cromatin changes to DNA, and perhaps there's a better word for what I'm trying to describe. It's my suspicion that some of the differences in my variant of ASD are not due to DNA variations, but other differences outside DNA such as RNA, prions, germ cell transposon differences, etc.
As a potential autist, I think everyone is autistic in one way or another (which would make everyone neuroytpical, lol).
In the end, maybe we are just all unique individuals with our character sliders set in various forms.
Genetics does not explain steep raise in last a few decades.
Anyway, we do not really know what is causing it, have no real idea what it even is. But we must apply occam's razor very very quickly!
Isn't there likely a large epigenetic component?
I thought the US government had just decided that the cause of autism was vaccines </sarcasm>
I'm interested - for reasons. Does anyone have a sense of what this study means in a practical or actionable sense?
In toto, the conclusion of the paper:
> Together, these findings define a dual-layered model of molecular convergence in ASD: convergence through shared interaction networks in the wild-type state and convergence through recurrent functional consequences of interaction rewiring in the mutant state. More broadly, this work establishes a scalable framework for systematic interrogation of the autism proteome, enables prioritization of druggable protein interfaces, and provides a rational foundation for precision therapeutic strategies aimed at restoring neurodevelopmental trajectories.
I have no grounding here. Does anyone want to have a go at teasing the meaning out?
Here’s how I’m thinking about it (still digging into the details): across genomics, it’s become clear few traits have clear traceability to a few loci in the genome.
Instead, evidence has been growing that epistasis, the nonlinear interaction between genes and other genomic regions, predominates in explanations of most phenotypes.
What this paper does is show where upstream of the genome various combinations of mutations can interact to cause damage during development, thus leading to the phenotype. Rather than correcting a particular mutation, or targeting drugs to their protein products, we may find downstream protein-protein interactions that are strong drivers of the phenotype, and hopefully find ways to prevent/reverse these effects.
Nothing yet. This is incredibly preliminary, with lots of this being tested in frogs.
It hopefully gives hints which will be tested,better understood, and show actual mechanisms in humans. But probably not for years.
There's a CNN article that has some expert quotes for context, but isn't quite as in depth as the study itself: https://archive.ph/yBiM8
I interpret it as they think they can find treatments that will course-correct the development of a child, but they're not saying anything about fixing something that's already broken.
“In an ideal world the scientist should find a method to prevent the most severe forms of autism but allow the milder forms to survive. After all, the really social people did not invent the first stone spear. It was probably invented by an Aspie who chipped away at rocks while the other people socialized around the campfire. Without autism traits we might still be living in caves.”
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/362838