> It’s crystal clear that AI can be a complexity factory.
> I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
I agree, and I've been thinking similarly. But I don't think there's anything "new" about what understandable and well-factored code should look like. It's the same principles as ever.
A lot of agent-written code looks like what you'd get if you gave an enthusiastic human slightly too many stimulants and asked them to take the shortest path to reach the goal. Plausibly this is just a result of the LLMs not being "smart enough" to do any better, but I think there's also an incentives problem. How do you reward human-understandability in benchmarks and unsupervised training?
I think the worst part is that to the bullshit artists that usually float to the top of any org chart, AI generated docs, and implementation plans, and code is superficially plausible. It's hard to find any particular thing that is wrong with all of it - just a general vibe of verbosity. I am observing entire engineering departments drowning in AI generated RFCs and TDDs and thousand plus word Jira tickets and PR reviews and feedback to the PRs. All just Claude talking to itself via various meat-based secretaries.
Meanwhile, as far as leadership is concerned, they don't really understand what is being delivered they just know there's a lot of it. So they're happy - for now.
I think a lot of shops are going to have to go through a couple years of Github-style "why the fuck is our service always down?" before they put 2 and 2 together.
> I think a lot of shops are going to have to go through a couple years of Github-style "why the fuck is our service always down?" before they put 2 and 2 together.
I think it will be like the outsourcing wave in the early 2000s. A lot of places ended up pulling development back in house when it became unsustainable.
There are deterministically computable metrics for cognitive complexity and readability[0].
They’re not perfect by any means — and I suspect they’re already included in the RL process for coding evals, and have been for some time. I do think we’ll see ongoing improvement in this area though.
I don't think these comparisons between AI generated code and an idealised version of the code are productive. We have to compare with code that exists in the real world, so AI against human, and not only that, good AI generated code with good human written code, as well as AI slop with human slop.
I think if we did that we'd see that on average the code written by humans are less legible, parts of the intention will live forever in the mind of the developer at time of writing, and more prone to complexity build-up over time, simply because there wasn't time and incentive to go back and refactor code that works, apparently.
Now with AI sure you produce a lot more complexity, more than the human prompter could write by himself, but complexity can be managed with the same workflow that created it, by analysing and removing code paths, changing code architecture, replacing reimplementation with consolidated libs etc...
It's a matter of knowing how to use the tool and not creating a false sense of nostalgia where we feel like we had it better in the old days, which is not true at all.
> How do you reward human-understandability in benchmarks and unsupervised training?
And to answer this, there is no replacement for humans immersed in their world yet, so we need developers with with good understanding of the domain and that are able to write good descriptive prose in order to steer agents into producing acceptable code.
> there is no replacement for humans immersed in their world yet, so we need developers with with good understanding of the domain
It's not enough. The software model that you produce ends up becoming part of the domain. You need to understand the system. You are the only one who has the potential do that if you have the ability and are willing to work at it.
Set acceptable review standards, outline appropriate frameworking, document approaches, test standards, documentation standards and overall just set good examples in both context and the codebase.
If your codebase is slop it's because you approved it.
Interestingly enough, the question "do we want to support it" has been the main one (not "can we write it") in any sufficiently large and mature project for as long as I remember.
Now, becoming large is now a solved problem essentially, but that's still only maybe 10-20% of the software engineering work in the long run. I'm grateful I can delegate some grunt work to LLMs, but, essentially, the main reason why large projects slow down development has never been due to inability to write lots of code quickly.
we will go full circle "what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans" maybe we invent a pseudo programming language so we get deterministic results ;)
I honestly have a vision of a database of .md files that fully describes an application in human-readable, (ok, engineer-readable), text. Making a change is committing a change to the human-readable text, and then AI comes and figures out the rest and/or suggests edits to the human-readable text. (Or asks questions.)
The vision is that AI owns the process end to end, from autonomous user interviews through spec generation all the way to implementation. We shouldn't need to tell AI what to do for a high level goal, it should figure it out on its own.
if your spec fully describes a program, it is at least the length of the source code, and probably longer. It will also be just as difficult to read and understand. You cannot circumvent this with different wording
Yes I'm more than okay. AI has enabled a scale of personal ambition I could only previously have dreamed of.
I've never been the kind of coder who could easily sit down and get their thoughts out from mind to written lines. I've seen that happen in a few gifted individuals, and AI might be frustrating them, because for them, coding was never the bottleneck, but for me, I would always get stuck in analysis paralysis, and just writing the first line of a project was a daunting prospect.
With AI I'm able to construct an entire ecosystem of programs I've always wanted.
The code isn't perfect, but I understand enough to fix architectural mistakes and to guide the AI to a good enough solution.
It's true I've always been better at breaking things than making things, but for someone who was "never really a coder" I've had a good career doing it all the same!
>> I've never been the kind of coder
>Looks like you were never really a coder, to be honest.
I do not understand the bitterness here at all. AI is just a tool you can use for better or worse.
I learnt basic programming at an old age of 10 and 6502 assembler 2 years later from (paper)books.
There was no Internet and I dreamed of one day owning a magical software program called Macro Assembler so I could use labels and advanced loops in assembler programs instead of tediously translating examples from the book or magazines using a pencil and paper into assembly without such features.
The AI today is like that Macro Assembler for me back then. You, a human, are simply moved one layer of abstraction higher.
Did I enjoy writing that assembler back then when the goal was to complete a calculation in the time it took the crt tube's electron gun to draw one line on the screen? Sure. Would I want to write accounting software in it? Hell no.
There have been very crappy coders and great coders before and after AI. Just like almost no one writes assembler anymore, almost no one will write normal code in the age of AI. But knowledge of it, how it should be written is still going to be important.
Your value as a human is in the architecture of the software and choices that influence it's entire functioning. In maintainability, scalability and resilience present in your design from day 1 not added a year later.
You know how much slop and crappy work I saw before AI? A lot.
I have started to wonder to what degree programming discussion online is astroturfed. The financial incentive to flood programming discussion (any discussion related to work) with pro-AI messaging, and the simultaneous ease with which AI makes it to do so, makes it hard not to ponder what amount of seemingly organic pro-AI sentiment is not.
I'm sure there is some that is indeed genuine. It could even be most. But I'd be surprised if it is all.
What was the point to you? What I took away from the article is that AI adds a bunch of complexity that is making it harder, not easier to understand.
And I'm saying that is true, but it's also enabling a kind of complexity and ambition in outcomes that might be a worthwhile trade-off.
In the same way we accept that cars are no longer something that a mechanic can understand and repair without a laptop, because we trade off the repairability and understanding for better mileage or safer handling.
Either I misunderstood the article, or people are misunderstanding my point, because I'm genuinely confused by being called a bot.
It's useful to you. I'd say take the win and let the haters quibble. I'm good enough at coding that I can use it as part of my day job, but I hate coding for the sake of coding. For me coding is a tool for solving problems, and now AI can sometimes help me solve problems I might not have had the motivation to persue. My scale is usually "a small application that helps me do X", not "I develop photoshop singlehandedly".
absolubtely. Worth noting though that a large number of people here literally do develop photoshop, or similar apps of similar complexity.
The fact they aren't doing it singlehanded makes it way harder, not easier. This is a central counterintuitive finding of most thinking about software development
I'm not OK with it, but I have no choice besides maybe quitting my job.
I've also tried to understand the code that AI writes, but it's often insane and untangling it would slow me down so much that it would nullify the gains in speed that AI brings.
To me, either companies realize they're spending a lot more money to ship crappier code and AI becomes a niche, or we'll just stop looking at code. I don't think there's any other option because I don't see AI getting better at it. It seems to actually be getting worse and more annoying to use.
There is an in between here that developers seem to keep forgetting: Design the software architecture yourself — do some whiteboarding, figure out your abstractions and your UML, then write that in your prompt for the LLM to implement through a plan.
Velocity stays high. Cognitive overhead remains low. You know enough of your architecture from the “unit” level to see how the pieces work meaning you can still work fast and understand it without hating the quality it produces. This has worked wonders for my company; I’ve managed to personally write tools that are barely distinguishable from what I’d write by hand, and I’m confident enough to discuss its architecture from top to bottom. If the LLM ever produces a unit with a poor implementation, I just rewrite that unit.
Basically: do the “engineering” part of software engineering instead of throwing LLMs at the wall until code sticks. It doesn’t take much time to come up with a good design, compared to repeatedly iterating on a bad design and maintaining it for years to come.
LLMs suck at design, and that’s why they lead to this bad code. But if a human spends an hour to build nice SOLID abstractions, and tell the LLM each responsibility — they are pretty good at using and wiring these parts together.
My company recently had to cut back our usage to effectively nothing and I get to code by hand again. I'm going to appreciate it while I can. The AI just wasn't providing enough value for us
> We’ve never needed to treat understanding our own code as a separate cost from writing it, because writing it largely forced us to understand it.
Once a system gets to a certain scale, understanding it has always been a problem; it's just exacerbated in the age of LLMs. On many occasions, I've even seen folks write code they didn't understand, in the hopes that it would solve issues we were experiencing. Sometimes this code shipped. AI has just laid it bare.
I've been working for many months on exactly this problem: a tool to codify and accelerate understanding. Help with prod incidents. Architect better. Get to systematic understanding faster to save businesses valuable time (read: money). This is only getting worse in the AI age, but it has always been a problem for software at scale, and I'm thoroughly enjoying solving problems that I and my teams have had for many years.
My tiny two pet projects I keep developing with LLMs taught me how useful TDD is - I'm not a software engineer so I've been never formally introduced to these, but now I learn the best practices.
So in consequence I have less bugs in this code than what I could achieve myself, and as a second outcome of these is a solid workspace templates that make it faster and easier to get another small thing up to speed, the way that's good and "me". And the very short leash, sandbox and hooks make sure I learn a lot in the process too.
The balance sheets of the AI providers are pretty clear on this ownership thing: I shouldn't own it, NVidia should. Instead, I should pay at least once a very large amount to initially produce it. And then I should have a recurring usage-based monthly fee - for a license allowing me to say it's "my code". That's on top of hosting fees, etc.
The question of code ownership highlighted in some of the comments herein (e.g., "when you build software, you own it... "No, I specifically don’t. My company owns it...") takes me back to a paper I read years ago on password management and extrinsic risk: The basic idea was that employees have no real motivation to maintain password hygiene because they bear little to no risk of password compromise. They are asked both to be productive and to be secure, they are more likely to be sanctioned for productivity problems than security problems, so they sacrifice company security in favour of employment safety.
We've seen commentary along these lines re AI productivity gains Vs code maintenance costs and quality concerns for months/years now, but somehow, for me at least, viewing this through the lens of code ownership (literal ownership, not metaphorical/moral ownership in the 'take pride in your work and do it well, regardless' sense) makes this extrinsic risk all the more clear.
It also makes me think of the estimated billions lost to spreadsheet errors: non-programmers unaware that they were programming creating spreadsheet macros that appeared to do exactly what they wanted, but that in reality only did so most of the time, with edge cases and error handling omitted entirely, leading to significant financial losses for their employers.
In that case, the lack of sanction is far clearer: They were not programmers, they did their best, no one noticed and it wasn't their job to do so, etc.
The case of AI isn't that different, especially since it is just as available to the non-programmer as it is to the cavalier, or to the pressured junior, or to the responsible, take-ownership-and-maintain developer.
AI without governance and program management leads organizations to assume unqualified and unquantified risk with diffused responsibility; outside the small class of take-ownership-and-maintain professional, all risks are extrinsic to individuals so why should they care if it gets the job (mostly) done?
They don't and they won't.
(Reaches for popcorn to watch imminent train wrecks whilst hoping his water supply remains uncompromised.)
I don't believe that AI is the 'higher level of abstraction[1]' that it is often claimed to be. However I wonder if it's possible to work with a codebase when other developers are treating AI as a higher level of abstraction.
Analogously, people can write in assembly, but can you write in assembly when the codebase is frequently altered by someone with an optimizing compiler?
[1] - Do higher levels of abstractions even exist? By my way of thinking that's called not an abstraction. C isn't a higher level of abstraction; it's a different abstraction implemented by assembly. There are more powerful abstractions and more ergonomic abstractions, but that doesn't make them 'higher level'.
You wouldn't be the first person to eventually conclude that C is just a very fancy macro assembler.
But AI generated code is much like every other generated code: it is more voluminous and rather less elegant than what you'd write as a person. And here too there is a link with assembly: early compilers routinely put out absolutely terrible assembly by assembly programmers' standards of the day. And then they got better. To the point that today it takes some pretty rare niches that it pays off to break out the assembler and roll your own.
I expect AI generated code to develop in the same way, and the way to get them to improve is to hold generated code to high standards. The problem is the perverse incentive: generated code of low quality will eventually result in many more tokens burned than a one-shot piece of perfect and elegant code. Here you can draw a link with medicine...
> Analogously, people can write in assembly, but can you write in assembly when the codebase is frequently altered by someone with an optimizing compiler?
Yes. There's an interface boundary in the form of function prototypes and ABI rules. To the optimizing compiler, your assembly code is undistinguishable from separately compiled high-level code, and to your assembly code, the compiler output is undistinguishable from separately assembled low-level code.
One problem with LLMs, is that they don't respect these boundaries like an optimizing compiler would.
> can you write in assembly when the codebase is frequently altered by someone with an optimizing compiler
This itself is quite normal (e.g. we have .S files and .c files and link them together), but I suppose a more accurate analogy would be that someone is dumping their optimising compiler output directly into your .S files.
Maybe what we need is better ways to partition the slop-code and the not-slop code.
Sounds like you just don't like the phrase 'higher level'. To most people this is synonymous to 'powerful abstractions' and 'more ergonomic abstractions' in the sense that they allow us to think "at a higher level" - map instead of loop, objects instead of memory addresses and size, modules instead of gotos.
To be sure I don't like the phrase. But more importantly I also don't like the outcomes when improper abstractions are setup and vital details ignored.
> We’ve never needed to treat understanding our own code as a separate cost from writing it, because writing it largely forced us to understand it.
Completely agree with it.
> I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
It is already understandable if you are producing only required and necessary features. Understandability can be managed by scope control and not getting carried away with being able to produce more and more features.
I believe engineering teams will be working on trying to optimize for more engineering accountability in coming years, as the reality is catching up.
I find it incredibly difficult to contribute to code files that were initiated by LLMs. Need to dig deeper to understand why but I just don't like it. I end up prompting my way out of any issues I see, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't.
My father-in-law has (among other things) done a fair amount of editing or proofreading prose, mostly on paper with red and blue pens. He says that when the page looks like it's covered in blood, that means it was good writing. For bad writing, it's so bad that you can't really work with it.
I would not want to take a block of text written by AI and try to edit it to sound human. It's too hard to fix. (And I suspect this is why people don't - they just paste the AI output.)
I think the same may be true of AI code. You're not going to fix it. You can't edit it to be the code you would write. All you can do is re-prompt to try to get the AI to fix it.
I’ve settled on a practice of having the agent write a lesson plan with quizzes for me, for any PR or feature of sufficient size to warrant it. It works pretty well and forces me into a back and forth with the model where I otherwise might be tempted to let it do whatever it wants.
It's yours if during the generation process you correctly used the tool. e.g. You designed the architecture, you reviewed the generated code, you assisted all the development, you decided the type of tests and used your brain to guide the generation.
It's not your code if you just said "implement this" and then you shipped it. It's going to backfire - and if you still think that you own that code... well you're wrong. You're a code custodian rather than a code owner.
> I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
Why? Humans can't keep up. We can't keep up with writing the code, we can't keep up with debugging, and I think we're approaching a 'claude code' moment where we won't be able to keep up with system architecture.
This is why I don't use AI to write code directly but instead will use it to generate code snippets or ideas or critique, or even just use it as documentation I can talk to.
By doing this I can still get the benefits of the technology including - and this is crucial - as a learning aid to improve my own skills, while not entirely outsourcing my own thinking to the machine.
This is exactly how AI should be used when coding. "Agentic" AI produces garbage code. The entire codebase should never be accessible to the context (even if parts at a time, if the agent chooses the parts). And the entire codebase should never be write accessible. Only limited scope writes, human read, and approved.
> It’s crystal clear that AI can be a complexity factory.
> keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
I'm not sure this is going to be a worthwhile goal for much longer. Rarely is anyone caring about the complexity and comprehensibility of the ASM that GCC or LLVM generates from higher-level C code. I think the code-generation abstraction is just moving even higher now into "prompts". The architecture and engineering process of developing software systems is the important human component. The source code itself is not super valuable. What remains valuable is the input, direction, scrutiny, and "battle testing" of the solution.
"The system should email the customer when their subscription renews."
When? Which timezone? What should we email them? Which email address (the customer changed their email 10 minutes ago, the address at time of the charge?)
I can look at a page of code and answer those questions pretty quickly.
You could write all of those in plain English, but then there are more tiny flaws in the ambiguous language. Maybe we could standardize the language in some way. To reduce ambiguity we start using keywords. When we want to refer to the same thing twice we create a variable or a type. Two things must interleave, let's create concurrency primitives. To check that the prompt is correct, we can write a test for it.
And maybe we DO end up with a different format of prompting that supplies this, but at some point we are still giving directions to computers. If those directions are lossy, the system runs differently every time (which I've noticed is bad for building good software).
A big difference with libraries is that (hopefully) a whole lot of other people have used that same library the same way you are going to use it for the same purpose you are using it for. All the significant bugs hopefully were found by them and the library was fixed.
That usually makes it safe to use even if you have no idea how it does things inside.
With AI code there is a very good chance you are the first person to ever use that code.
I've inherited plenty of code bases. AI generated code is a special kind of foobar. With a code base inherited from a human you can at least be assured at least one human has understood each portion for a brief period. With agentic slop all bets are off.
Maybe I'm a bad programmer or have worked at places with terrible dev culture, but honestly I've made changes to code I didn't really understand. The changes I made seemed to accomplish the task I was aiming at, but the downstream effects were sometimes impossible for me to grok. Before vibe coding took over, using AI to help me get a handle on what a bunch of code was doing was actually one of the things that sold me on using AI.
Yeah, I think AI is a great tool to get a handle on a codebase so you understand it. It's just a much more difficult task when that code is AI generated. I don't think agentic coding is worth all the overhead and complexity. Honestly think that as human understanding is prioritized agentic coding will decline. But I don't think human understanding will be prioritized until we see some major crash and burns with agentic.
That's as good a guess about the future as any I suppose! Personally I'd give that about a 30% chance of happening in a large way. For small systems though I don't think I could ever personally go back to the old way. And maybe we should be composing small systems anyway...
I keep getting downvoted for saying this but I still review all of my AI generated code. I feel like I’m sufficiently sped up.
Of course you can go faster if you don’t read the code at all, that’s always been true. But it seems like the ability to emit large quantities of text is already a huge leap in productivity. I don’t think these tools are good enough yet to offload all or our thinking into them.
IMO human-verifying will always be a must, no matter how good the LLMs get. If I'm shipping code that I don't understand and it ends up having major problems, I'm still the one who's responsible for it, not the LLM.
You could ship code without understanding it, it just needs to be treated as throwaway, unreliable and potentially malicious. This is OK for some tasks, e.g. best-effort scraping of a frequently updated website that's actively hostile to automation
Where it really shines for me is when the best solution is explicit and obvious code, but really tedious to write. Now I'll choose to have AI write it instead of me, where before I might have tried to write a bad abstraction. Things like generating a TypedDict for a JSON A document I'm returning as a convenience from a postgres query.
I also review all of my AI-generated code. I feel that it’s disrespectful to my teammates to send unverified slop for review.
I’ve noticed that while my coding skills have very noticeably atrophied (to the point I am consciously scheduling time to manually code, just for practice), my ability to read and comprehend code quickly has actually improved quite dramatically.
I notice style inconsistencies and semantic errors far more quickly and consistently when reviewing both human- and LLM-generated code, as compared to a year ago. Cognitive tradeoff hypothesis and all that…
Absolutely! I haven't had this much fun since I was coding MySpace layout glitter graphic websites in 2006 with PHP, MySQL, and CodeIgniter.
I'm getting older, I have lots of ideas, and now I have tools that can help bring them together faster instead of spending two weeks obsessing about how I want to set up Ubuntu and have nothing to show for it. Helps replace the all-nighters that I used to be able to do.
I still think having decades of experience in everything from domains, DNS, FreeBSD/Linux servers, databases, all sorts of programming languages, and full stack dev helps get more out of these tools compared to somebody that has no idea what they're doing. Especially around the deployment side right now. People keep saying that's changing though.
You can write and calculate much faster with a typewriter and a calculator than you would do the same by hand, and you can use both even if you don't know handwriting or the algorithm for calculating logarithms by hand.
But you need to know the spelling to write the correct words with the typewriter, you don’t need to know with AI if you use voice recognition.
You need to know a programming language either to get a working program.
If you can do everything AI can, then you can use it like a tool like a typewriter but given the fact that many people can’t do what AI does for them, AI is something different then a typewriter.
By your logic a secretary is something like a typewriter too.
I don't see how that allegory relates. Understanding software is something that comes from education, time and experience. It can't he withheld to the same extent that it can't be magically imbued. AI can't give you that, because it doesn't have it to give.
Before the age of slop we are living in, there were brilliant people who designed, implemented, tested and debugged some very brilliant and enormous codebase that the average HN user would take years to understand at a bird's eye view.
So no, having access to the new fancy model does not make the average person a genius in the same way that having access to Stephen King's typewriter does not make anyone a writer of success.
> It’s crystal clear that AI can be a complexity factory.
> I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
I agree, and I've been thinking similarly. But I don't think there's anything "new" about what understandable and well-factored code should look like. It's the same principles as ever.
A lot of agent-written code looks like what you'd get if you gave an enthusiastic human slightly too many stimulants and asked them to take the shortest path to reach the goal. Plausibly this is just a result of the LLMs not being "smart enough" to do any better, but I think there's also an incentives problem. How do you reward human-understandability in benchmarks and unsupervised training?
I think the worst part is that to the bullshit artists that usually float to the top of any org chart, AI generated docs, and implementation plans, and code is superficially plausible. It's hard to find any particular thing that is wrong with all of it - just a general vibe of verbosity. I am observing entire engineering departments drowning in AI generated RFCs and TDDs and thousand plus word Jira tickets and PR reviews and feedback to the PRs. All just Claude talking to itself via various meat-based secretaries.
Meanwhile, as far as leadership is concerned, they don't really understand what is being delivered they just know there's a lot of it. So they're happy - for now.
I think a lot of shops are going to have to go through a couple years of Github-style "why the fuck is our service always down?" before they put 2 and 2 together.
> I think a lot of shops are going to have to go through a couple years of Github-style "why the fuck is our service always down?" before they put 2 and 2 together.
I think it will be like the outsourcing wave in the early 2000s. A lot of places ended up pulling development back in house when it became unsustainable.
There are deterministically computable metrics for cognitive complexity and readability[0].
They’re not perfect by any means — and I suspect they’re already included in the RL process for coding evals, and have been for some time. I do think we’ll see ongoing improvement in this area though.
[0] (pdf warning) https://www.sonarsource.com/docs/CognitiveComplexity.pdf
See also: Goodhart's law
I don't think these comparisons between AI generated code and an idealised version of the code are productive. We have to compare with code that exists in the real world, so AI against human, and not only that, good AI generated code with good human written code, as well as AI slop with human slop.
I think if we did that we'd see that on average the code written by humans are less legible, parts of the intention will live forever in the mind of the developer at time of writing, and more prone to complexity build-up over time, simply because there wasn't time and incentive to go back and refactor code that works, apparently.
Now with AI sure you produce a lot more complexity, more than the human prompter could write by himself, but complexity can be managed with the same workflow that created it, by analysing and removing code paths, changing code architecture, replacing reimplementation with consolidated libs etc...
It's a matter of knowing how to use the tool and not creating a false sense of nostalgia where we feel like we had it better in the old days, which is not true at all.
> How do you reward human-understandability in benchmarks and unsupervised training?
And to answer this, there is no replacement for humans immersed in their world yet, so we need developers with with good understanding of the domain and that are able to write good descriptive prose in order to steer agents into producing acceptable code.
> there is no replacement for humans immersed in their world yet, so we need developers with with good understanding of the domain
It's not enough. The software model that you produce ends up becoming part of the domain. You need to understand the system. You are the only one who has the potential do that if you have the ability and are willing to work at it.
Same way you do with humans.
Set acceptable review standards, outline appropriate frameworking, document approaches, test standards, documentation standards and overall just set good examples in both context and the codebase.
If your codebase is slop it's because you approved it.
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> when you build software, you own it
No, I specifically don’t. My company owns it, and that bastard will lay me off without a second thought.
Yeah but only _you_ know what to do when your code breaks, ha ha.
Which isn't exactly a new problem, just going to get scaled up.
Especially if they can use code you submitted as an excuse
That was done pre-LLMs as well, so we’re status quo.
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Interestingly enough, the question "do we want to support it" has been the main one (not "can we write it") in any sufficiently large and mature project for as long as I remember.
Now, becoming large is now a solved problem essentially, but that's still only maybe 10-20% of the software engineering work in the long run. I'm grateful I can delegate some grunt work to LLMs, but, essentially, the main reason why large projects slow down development has never been due to inability to write lots of code quickly.
we will go full circle "what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans" maybe we invent a pseudo programming language so we get deterministic results ;)
Some guy posted that project like a week ago on HN, no joke. Circle has been circled.
I honestly have a vision of a database of .md files that fully describes an application in human-readable, (ok, engineer-readable), text. Making a change is committing a change to the human-readable text, and then AI comes and figures out the rest and/or suggests edits to the human-readable text. (Or asks questions.)
That's just a programming language, but worse.
The vision is that AI owns the process end to end, from autonomous user interviews through spec generation all the way to implementation. We shouldn't need to tell AI what to do for a high level goal, it should figure it out on its own.
if your spec fully describes a program, it is at least the length of the source code, and probably longer. It will also be just as difficult to read and understand. You cannot circumvent this with different wording
Yes I'm more than okay. AI has enabled a scale of personal ambition I could only previously have dreamed of.
I've never been the kind of coder who could easily sit down and get their thoughts out from mind to written lines. I've seen that happen in a few gifted individuals, and AI might be frustrating them, because for them, coding was never the bottleneck, but for me, I would always get stuck in analysis paralysis, and just writing the first line of a project was a daunting prospect.
With AI I'm able to construct an entire ecosystem of programs I've always wanted.
The code isn't perfect, but I understand enough to fix architectural mistakes and to guide the AI to a good enough solution.
> I've never been the kind of coder
Looks like you were never really a coder, to be honest.
It's true I've always been better at breaking things than making things, but for someone who was "never really a coder" I've had a good career doing it all the same!
Okay, and why is that a problem?
I never said it was a problem.
>> I've never been the kind of coder >Looks like you were never really a coder, to be honest.
I do not understand the bitterness here at all. AI is just a tool you can use for better or worse.
I learnt basic programming at an old age of 10 and 6502 assembler 2 years later from (paper)books.
There was no Internet and I dreamed of one day owning a magical software program called Macro Assembler so I could use labels and advanced loops in assembler programs instead of tediously translating examples from the book or magazines using a pencil and paper into assembly without such features.
The AI today is like that Macro Assembler for me back then. You, a human, are simply moved one layer of abstraction higher.
Did I enjoy writing that assembler back then when the goal was to complete a calculation in the time it took the crt tube's electron gun to draw one line on the screen? Sure. Would I want to write accounting software in it? Hell no.
There have been very crappy coders and great coders before and after AI. Just like almost no one writes assembler anymore, almost no one will write normal code in the age of AI. But knowledge of it, how it should be written is still going to be important.
Your value as a human is in the architecture of the software and choices that influence it's entire functioning. In maintainability, scalability and resilience present in your design from day 1 not added a year later.
You know how much slop and crappy work I saw before AI? A lot.
Is this a bot, or real..?
I have started to wonder to what degree programming discussion online is astroturfed. The financial incentive to flood programming discussion (any discussion related to work) with pro-AI messaging, and the simultaneous ease with which AI makes it to do so, makes it hard not to ponder what amount of seemingly organic pro-AI sentiment is not.
I'm sure there is some that is indeed genuine. It could even be most. But I'd be surprised if it is all.
Way to completely miss the point of the article.
> point of the article
Nth iteration of pointless AI navel gazing?
What was the point to you? What I took away from the article is that AI adds a bunch of complexity that is making it harder, not easier to understand.
And I'm saying that is true, but it's also enabling a kind of complexity and ambition in outcomes that might be a worthwhile trade-off.
In the same way we accept that cars are no longer something that a mechanic can understand and repair without a laptop, because we trade off the repairability and understanding for better mileage or safer handling.
Either I misunderstood the article, or people are misunderstanding my point, because I'm genuinely confused by being called a bot.
It's useful to you. I'd say take the win and let the haters quibble. I'm good enough at coding that I can use it as part of my day job, but I hate coding for the sake of coding. For me coding is a tool for solving problems, and now AI can sometimes help me solve problems I might not have had the motivation to persue. My scale is usually "a small application that helps me do X", not "I develop photoshop singlehandedly".
absolubtely. Worth noting though that a large number of people here literally do develop photoshop, or similar apps of similar complexity.
The fact they aren't doing it singlehanded makes it way harder, not easier. This is a central counterintuitive finding of most thinking about software development
> The fact they aren't doing it singlehanded makes it way harder, not easier.
As N->large, fraction of time spent coordinating approaches infinity.
I'm not OK with it, but I have no choice besides maybe quitting my job.
I've also tried to understand the code that AI writes, but it's often insane and untangling it would slow me down so much that it would nullify the gains in speed that AI brings.
To me, either companies realize they're spending a lot more money to ship crappier code and AI becomes a niche, or we'll just stop looking at code. I don't think there's any other option because I don't see AI getting better at it. It seems to actually be getting worse and more annoying to use.
There is an in between here that developers seem to keep forgetting: Design the software architecture yourself — do some whiteboarding, figure out your abstractions and your UML, then write that in your prompt for the LLM to implement through a plan.
Velocity stays high. Cognitive overhead remains low. You know enough of your architecture from the “unit” level to see how the pieces work meaning you can still work fast and understand it without hating the quality it produces. This has worked wonders for my company; I’ve managed to personally write tools that are barely distinguishable from what I’d write by hand, and I’m confident enough to discuss its architecture from top to bottom. If the LLM ever produces a unit with a poor implementation, I just rewrite that unit.
Basically: do the “engineering” part of software engineering instead of throwing LLMs at the wall until code sticks. It doesn’t take much time to come up with a good design, compared to repeatedly iterating on a bad design and maintaining it for years to come.
LLMs suck at design, and that’s why they lead to this bad code. But if a human spends an hour to build nice SOLID abstractions, and tell the LLM each responsibility — they are pretty good at using and wiring these parts together.
My company recently had to cut back our usage to effectively nothing and I get to code by hand again. I'm going to appreciate it while I can. The AI just wasn't providing enough value for us
> We’ve never needed to treat understanding our own code as a separate cost from writing it, because writing it largely forced us to understand it.
Once a system gets to a certain scale, understanding it has always been a problem; it's just exacerbated in the age of LLMs. On many occasions, I've even seen folks write code they didn't understand, in the hopes that it would solve issues we were experiencing. Sometimes this code shipped. AI has just laid it bare.
I've been working for many months on exactly this problem: a tool to codify and accelerate understanding. Help with prod incidents. Architect better. Get to systematic understanding faster to save businesses valuable time (read: money). This is only getting worse in the AI age, but it has always been a problem for software at scale, and I'm thoroughly enjoying solving problems that I and my teams have had for many years.
I'm fine with it. I'm just as liable or likely to write bugs in my own handwritten code as I am in generating code via AI, if not more likely.
My tiny two pet projects I keep developing with LLMs taught me how useful TDD is - I'm not a software engineer so I've been never formally introduced to these, but now I learn the best practices.
So in consequence I have less bugs in this code than what I could achieve myself, and as a second outcome of these is a solid workspace templates that make it faster and easier to get another small thing up to speed, the way that's good and "me". And the very short leash, sandbox and hooks make sure I learn a lot in the process too.
The balance sheets of the AI providers are pretty clear on this ownership thing: I shouldn't own it, NVidia should. Instead, I should pay at least once a very large amount to initially produce it. And then I should have a recurring usage-based monthly fee - for a license allowing me to say it's "my code". That's on top of hosting fees, etc.
The question of code ownership highlighted in some of the comments herein (e.g., "when you build software, you own it... "No, I specifically don’t. My company owns it...") takes me back to a paper I read years ago on password management and extrinsic risk: The basic idea was that employees have no real motivation to maintain password hygiene because they bear little to no risk of password compromise. They are asked both to be productive and to be secure, they are more likely to be sanctioned for productivity problems than security problems, so they sacrifice company security in favour of employment safety.
We've seen commentary along these lines re AI productivity gains Vs code maintenance costs and quality concerns for months/years now, but somehow, for me at least, viewing this through the lens of code ownership (literal ownership, not metaphorical/moral ownership in the 'take pride in your work and do it well, regardless' sense) makes this extrinsic risk all the more clear.
It also makes me think of the estimated billions lost to spreadsheet errors: non-programmers unaware that they were programming creating spreadsheet macros that appeared to do exactly what they wanted, but that in reality only did so most of the time, with edge cases and error handling omitted entirely, leading to significant financial losses for their employers.
In that case, the lack of sanction is far clearer: They were not programmers, they did their best, no one noticed and it wasn't their job to do so, etc.
The case of AI isn't that different, especially since it is just as available to the non-programmer as it is to the cavalier, or to the pressured junior, or to the responsible, take-ownership-and-maintain developer.
AI without governance and program management leads organizations to assume unqualified and unquantified risk with diffused responsibility; outside the small class of take-ownership-and-maintain professional, all risks are extrinsic to individuals so why should they care if it gets the job (mostly) done?
They don't and they won't.
(Reaches for popcorn to watch imminent train wrecks whilst hoping his water supply remains uncompromised.)
I don't believe that AI is the 'higher level of abstraction[1]' that it is often claimed to be. However I wonder if it's possible to work with a codebase when other developers are treating AI as a higher level of abstraction.
Analogously, people can write in assembly, but can you write in assembly when the codebase is frequently altered by someone with an optimizing compiler?
[1] - Do higher levels of abstractions even exist? By my way of thinking that's called not an abstraction. C isn't a higher level of abstraction; it's a different abstraction implemented by assembly. There are more powerful abstractions and more ergonomic abstractions, but that doesn't make them 'higher level'.
You wouldn't be the first person to eventually conclude that C is just a very fancy macro assembler.
But AI generated code is much like every other generated code: it is more voluminous and rather less elegant than what you'd write as a person. And here too there is a link with assembly: early compilers routinely put out absolutely terrible assembly by assembly programmers' standards of the day. And then they got better. To the point that today it takes some pretty rare niches that it pays off to break out the assembler and roll your own.
I expect AI generated code to develop in the same way, and the way to get them to improve is to hold generated code to high standards. The problem is the perverse incentive: generated code of low quality will eventually result in many more tokens burned than a one-shot piece of perfect and elegant code. Here you can draw a link with medicine...
> Analogously, people can write in assembly, but can you write in assembly when the codebase is frequently altered by someone with an optimizing compiler?
Yes. There's an interface boundary in the form of function prototypes and ABI rules. To the optimizing compiler, your assembly code is undistinguishable from separately compiled high-level code, and to your assembly code, the compiler output is undistinguishable from separately assembled low-level code.
One problem with LLMs, is that they don't respect these boundaries like an optimizing compiler would.
> can you write in assembly when the codebase is frequently altered by someone with an optimizing compiler
This itself is quite normal (e.g. we have .S files and .c files and link them together), but I suppose a more accurate analogy would be that someone is dumping their optimising compiler output directly into your .S files.
Maybe what we need is better ways to partition the slop-code and the not-slop code.
Clearly I misspoke. But it looks like you've got the gist of what I was trying to say.
Sounds like you just don't like the phrase 'higher level'. To most people this is synonymous to 'powerful abstractions' and 'more ergonomic abstractions' in the sense that they allow us to think "at a higher level" - map instead of loop, objects instead of memory addresses and size, modules instead of gotos.
To be sure I don't like the phrase. But more importantly I also don't like the outcomes when improper abstractions are setup and vital details ignored.
There are no true scotsmen.
> We’ve never needed to treat understanding our own code as a separate cost from writing it, because writing it largely forced us to understand it.
Completely agree with it.
> I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
It is already understandable if you are producing only required and necessary features. Understandability can be managed by scope control and not getting carried away with being able to produce more and more features.
I believe engineering teams will be working on trying to optimize for more engineering accountability in coming years, as the reality is catching up.
I find it incredibly difficult to contribute to code files that were initiated by LLMs. Need to dig deeper to understand why but I just don't like it. I end up prompting my way out of any issues I see, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't.
My father-in-law has (among other things) done a fair amount of editing or proofreading prose, mostly on paper with red and blue pens. He says that when the page looks like it's covered in blood, that means it was good writing. For bad writing, it's so bad that you can't really work with it.
I would not want to take a block of text written by AI and try to edit it to sound human. It's too hard to fix. (And I suspect this is why people don't - they just paste the AI output.)
I think the same may be true of AI code. You're not going to fix it. You can't edit it to be the code you would write. All you can do is re-prompt to try to get the AI to fix it.
I’ve settled on a practice of having the agent write a lesson plan with quizzes for me, for any PR or feature of sufficient size to warrant it. It works pretty well and forces me into a back and forth with the model where I otherwise might be tempted to let it do whatever it wants.
I published a skill and short article on the technique I settled on: https://condour.github.io/lesson-plan-quiz/
It's yours if during the generation process you correctly used the tool. e.g. You designed the architecture, you reviewed the generated code, you assisted all the development, you decided the type of tests and used your brain to guide the generation.
It's not your code if you just said "implement this" and then you shipped it. It's going to backfire - and if you still think that you own that code... well you're wrong. You're a code custodian rather than a code owner.
> I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what software would look like if we made keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
Why? Humans can't keep up. We can't keep up with writing the code, we can't keep up with debugging, and I think we're approaching a 'claude code' moment where we won't be able to keep up with system architecture.
This is why I don't use AI to write code directly but instead will use it to generate code snippets or ideas or critique, or even just use it as documentation I can talk to.
By doing this I can still get the benefits of the technology including - and this is crucial - as a learning aid to improve my own skills, while not entirely outsourcing my own thinking to the machine.
This is exactly how AI should be used when coding. "Agentic" AI produces garbage code. The entire codebase should never be accessible to the context (even if parts at a time, if the agent chooses the parts). And the entire codebase should never be write accessible. Only limited scope writes, human read, and approved.
> It’s crystal clear that AI can be a complexity factory.
> keeping software understandable to humans a first-class design goal in the age of AI.
I'm not sure this is going to be a worthwhile goal for much longer. Rarely is anyone caring about the complexity and comprehensibility of the ASM that GCC or LLVM generates from higher-level C code. I think the code-generation abstraction is just moving even higher now into "prompts". The architecture and engineering process of developing software systems is the important human component. The source code itself is not super valuable. What remains valuable is the input, direction, scrutiny, and "battle testing" of the solution.
Natural language can be ambiguous, though.
"The system should email the customer when their subscription renews."
When? Which timezone? What should we email them? Which email address (the customer changed their email 10 minutes ago, the address at time of the charge?)
I can look at a page of code and answer those questions pretty quickly.
You could write all of those in plain English, but then there are more tiny flaws in the ambiguous language. Maybe we could standardize the language in some way. To reduce ambiguity we start using keywords. When we want to refer to the same thing twice we create a variable or a type. Two things must interleave, let's create concurrency primitives. To check that the prompt is correct, we can write a test for it.
And maybe we DO end up with a different format of prompting that supplies this, but at some point we are still giving directions to computers. If those directions are lossy, the system runs differently every time (which I've noticed is bad for building good software).
How can you scrutinize something you don't understand?
For most people employed as programmers, inheriting code from previous people has been a thing.
Also relevant: including libraries written by others in your own software.
As always it comes down to finding a healthy balance.
A big difference with libraries is that (hopefully) a whole lot of other people have used that same library the same way you are going to use it for the same purpose you are using it for. All the significant bugs hopefully were found by them and the library was fixed.
That usually makes it safe to use even if you have no idea how it does things inside.
With AI code there is a very good chance you are the first person to ever use that code.
I've inherited plenty of code bases. AI generated code is a special kind of foobar. With a code base inherited from a human you can at least be assured at least one human has understood each portion for a brief period. With agentic slop all bets are off.
Maybe I'm a bad programmer or have worked at places with terrible dev culture, but honestly I've made changes to code I didn't really understand. The changes I made seemed to accomplish the task I was aiming at, but the downstream effects were sometimes impossible for me to grok. Before vibe coding took over, using AI to help me get a handle on what a bunch of code was doing was actually one of the things that sold me on using AI.
Yeah, I think AI is a great tool to get a handle on a codebase so you understand it. It's just a much more difficult task when that code is AI generated. I don't think agentic coding is worth all the overhead and complexity. Honestly think that as human understanding is prioritized agentic coding will decline. But I don't think human understanding will be prioritized until we see some major crash and burns with agentic.
That's as good a guess about the future as any I suppose! Personally I'd give that about a 30% chance of happening in a large way. For small systems though I don't think I could ever personally go back to the old way. And maybe we should be composing small systems anyway...
I keep getting downvoted for saying this but I still review all of my AI generated code. I feel like I’m sufficiently sped up.
Of course you can go faster if you don’t read the code at all, that’s always been true. But it seems like the ability to emit large quantities of text is already a huge leap in productivity. I don’t think these tools are good enough yet to offload all or our thinking into them.
IMO human-verifying will always be a must, no matter how good the LLMs get. If I'm shipping code that I don't understand and it ends up having major problems, I'm still the one who's responsible for it, not the LLM.
You could ship code without understanding it, it just needs to be treated as throwaway, unreliable and potentially malicious. This is OK for some tasks, e.g. best-effort scraping of a frequently updated website that's actively hostile to automation
Where it really shines for me is when the best solution is explicit and obvious code, but really tedious to write. Now I'll choose to have AI write it instead of me, where before I might have tried to write a bad abstraction. Things like generating a TypedDict for a JSON A document I'm returning as a convenience from a postgres query.
What do you say to your boss if they ask why your colleague is producing 10-100x the kloc as you?
I'd ask what outcome we are trying to achieve.
I also review all of my AI-generated code. I feel that it’s disrespectful to my teammates to send unverified slop for review.
I’ve noticed that while my coding skills have very noticeably atrophied (to the point I am consciously scheduling time to manually code, just for practice), my ability to read and comprehend code quickly has actually improved quite dramatically.
I notice style inconsistencies and semantic errors far more quickly and consistently when reviewing both human- and LLM-generated code, as compared to a year ago. Cognitive tradeoff hypothesis and all that…
We need some laws to tag which code has been produced or not by an AI.
For the AI Act, it is the case for images and videos, don't know about code.
And since AI is trained on your code and my code. Your code is now my code and my code is now your code :)
Absolutely! I haven't had this much fun since I was coding MySpace layout glitter graphic websites in 2006 with PHP, MySQL, and CodeIgniter.
I'm getting older, I have lots of ideas, and now I have tools that can help bring them together faster instead of spending two weeks obsessing about how I want to set up Ubuntu and have nothing to show for it. Helps replace the all-nighters that I used to be able to do.
I still think having decades of experience in everything from domains, DNS, FreeBSD/Linux servers, databases, all sorts of programming languages, and full stack dev helps get more out of these tools compared to somebody that has no idea what they're doing. Especially around the deployment side right now. People keep saying that's changing though.
You are responsible for your (robot's) output.
My code if you mean responsibility, not my code if you mean authorship.
That's not too different for crediting e.g. a typewriter as the tool used to author the text. That is, not ridiculous, but not new.
I can prompt AI to create code I couldn’t write myself, I can hardly say that about a typewriter.
It’s more like a calculator that does calculations I can’t do.
Can you perform calculations involving roots and logarithms without a calculator? If not, do you claim YOU can calculate them?
You can write and calculate much faster with a typewriter and a calculator than you would do the same by hand, and you can use both even if you don't know handwriting or the algorithm for calculating logarithms by hand.
But you need to know the spelling to write the correct words with the typewriter, you don’t need to know with AI if you use voice recognition. You need to know a programming language either to get a working program. If you can do everything AI can, then you can use it like a tool like a typewriter but given the fact that many people can’t do what AI does for them, AI is something different then a typewriter.
By your logic a secretary is something like a typewriter too.
That's not OK. It's so convoluted I don't want my name on it.
There are still boomers who think that BASIC from the 1960s made computing too easy, the gatekeepers will lose over a long enough time period.
I don't see how that allegory relates. Understanding software is something that comes from education, time and experience. It can't he withheld to the same extent that it can't be magically imbued. AI can't give you that, because it doesn't have it to give.
it's the best keyboard extension I've ever used
Yes.
Before the age of slop we are living in, there were brilliant people who designed, implemented, tested and debugged some very brilliant and enormous codebase that the average HN user would take years to understand at a bird's eye view.
So no, having access to the new fancy model does not make the average person a genius in the same way that having access to Stephen King's typewriter does not make anyone a writer of success.
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