They broke in to the construction site of a datacenter. Can we make the title a bit less sensational and more truthful? (Not blaming the submitter, this is the title of TFA)
I eagerly await seeing prosecution. People need to learn that just because they don't like something doesn't mean they have the right to stop it existing, no matter how much they stomp their feet.
They didn’t stop it from existing. In a functional democracy, you have the right to protest. If you stand alongside the road, nobody notices. You have to find a balance: not too much damage, but do get noticed. They chose this path.
No, they did not choose that path unless you include beating up reporters to make sure no images of the 'protest' came out as part of that path. All they have done is add 'datacentres' to the OmniCause, this is also made clear by the rabble who they linked up with. Here's a quote from a newspaper article on this break-in, in Dutch:
Journalisten ter plaatse zijn geslagen om te voorkomen dat er beelden werden gemaakt van de actie, die georganiseerd is door Geef Tegengas. deze actiegroep wordt gesteund door klimaatbeweging Fossielvrij, Actiegroep ZO, DeGoedeZaak, Leitmotiv, XR en Scientists for Future.
That translates to *journalists were beaten up to keep images from the action from coming out. The action is organised by 'Geef Tegengas' (loosely translates to 'resist', literally 'give counter-gas') which is supported by 'Klimaatbeweging Fossielvrij', 'Actiegroep ZO', 'DeGoedeZaak' ('the good cause', i.e. the omnicause), Leitmotiv, XR (Extinction Rebellion, high-brow climate hysterics who regularly block motorways in the Netherlands) and 'Scientists for Future'.
Wanna bet they all pranced around with their fruit phones to record their 'rebellion'?
There's plenty of ways in the Netherlands to protest without beating up journos since a large fraction of the press tends to be on activists' side, double so for the public broadcaster NOS. They're just doing it this way because they want to be 'radical' and see themselves as 'revolutionaries' for 'the cause'. They're spoiled brats, the lot of them, playing Che Guevara in the knowledge that the Dutch authorities tend to let them off anyway.
[edit: deleted double post, that's what you get trying to post from a train in Germany where mobile networks should be declared endangered species. Quo Vadis, Wirtschaftswunder?]
It is, bad tactics. They're caught in the 'revolutionary mood' which has set France on fire. Those journos are 'part of the establishment' after all. Well, yes, they are and also they tend to side with activists, two things can be true at the same time. There are exceptions to that rule, maybe they very selectively beat up reporters? Anyway, that's still outside the realm or 'normal protests'.
Yes, I have been to protests. Protests are not illegal in the Netherlands, you can go very far - especially if you protest for the 'right causes' - before you're stopped by the authorities. Protesters want to be seen protesting, that is what they do it for.
What you're describing is not protest but vandalism. The first is allowed, the second is not. That is what I said after all, that this rabble did not 'walk the path'.
But you see, it became very trendy since about 2016 or so to make "a riot is the language of the unheard" a thing again. And thus we get the 2020's protests.
These people don't care if its vandalism, its morally righteous to them, and so its not vandalism, its a humanistic protest.
This is AI though. You may as well protest water being wet, or 5+8 being 13.
Besides to stop the job losses, all they really need to do is to stop the Dutch government from saving money on labor (and to stop or at least reduce importing everything from labor to software). Of course, knowing the Dutch government ... good luck. What I mean is, the problem here is not AI.
In fact AI can solve so many problems for these protestors, they just know, and I kind of agree with them here, their own government, democratic or not, will use AI against its citizens. And it being the Dutch government, especially against paying its citizens a decent wage, but also in many other ways.
The fix for this is not "stop AI". It's a decent social contract, AND it's the government actually obeying its own laws. Like national insurance actually forcing doctors to use police data in treatment decisions. Or should we call that what it actually is: the government forbidding and persecuting medical doctors for treating people for a number of things based on interactions with the police. Everything from drug arrests to being illegally in the country. It should be called that because with a national insurance, of course the insurance is just a proxy for the government, not an actual company that makes its own decisions. And once you persecute doctors for something, it isn't really their choice anymore either.
> and to stop or at least reduce importing everything from labor to software
I mean, the data center they were protesting is literally built, operated and owned by Microsoft.
I agree, AI as a technology is here to stay in some form, but wouldn't you be a little pissed if some foreign company takes your data, builds a data center in your community without you having any control, puts you out of a job and then sells your own knowledge back to you?
Doesn't sound very sovereign to me.
(Not to start with the whole angle that the AI goldrush undoes what little progress in fighting climate change was archieved)
> I mean, the data center they were protesting is literally built, operated and owned by Microsoft.
You notice I was claiming what they're doing makes no sense. What they're angry about is AI stealing jobs. And yes, Microsoft is not the problem in the labor market in the Netherlands.
If government is unwilling to meditate these kinds of conflicts then people are naturally going to take matters into their own hands, what other outcome would you expect?
Obviously the threat of prosecution wasn't enough of a deterrence so now what?
No, the country shouldn't be held hostage by a small group of agitators. They can vote like the rest of the country, and if they don't convince enough people to join their cause then they should suck it up and try to be more convincing.
Liberal democracy sounds nice in theory but it doesn't work in practice. Like it or not populism is a powerful force that must be reckoned with, always has always will.
Liberal democracy works fine in that it makes people less miserable than the alternatives, but there are many other sources of misery from which it can't protect a society. It takes more than a good system of government for things to 'work'.
Probably for the same reason a standard US keyboard doesn't have dollar signs on it. My "standard" European keyboard doesn't have Microsoft logos on it.
Is this the setup to some joke? There is no standard European keyboard. Netherlands uses a combination of ISO and ANSI qwerty, France Azerty, Belgium a special Belgian flavour of Azerty, Germany Qwertz, etc etc.
They broke in to the construction site of a datacenter. Can we make the title a bit less sensational and more truthful? (Not blaming the submitter, this is the title of TFA)
Do you think then, they are pro datacenters? And broke in to help finish it faster?
https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/240894/protest-datacenter-amste...
I think this is economic anger misdirected at DCs
All the AI Job loss narrative doesn't help, but attracts the wrath.
Source: https://www.reuters.com/technology/protesters-enter-microsof... (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50391630)
I eagerly await seeing prosecution. People need to learn that just because they don't like something doesn't mean they have the right to stop it existing, no matter how much they stomp their feet.
Worth reading about the 1700s. People can definitely stomp their feet and make the world change.
They didn’t stop it from existing. In a functional democracy, you have the right to protest. If you stand alongside the road, nobody notices. You have to find a balance: not too much damage, but do get noticed. They chose this path.
Who decides how much damage is too much? Protester?
The courts and public opinion
No, they did not choose that path unless you include beating up reporters to make sure no images of the 'protest' came out as part of that path. All they have done is add 'datacentres' to the OmniCause, this is also made clear by the rabble who they linked up with. Here's a quote from a newspaper article on this break-in, in Dutch:
Journalisten ter plaatse zijn geslagen om te voorkomen dat er beelden werden gemaakt van de actie, die georganiseerd is door Geef Tegengas. deze actiegroep wordt gesteund door klimaatbeweging Fossielvrij, Actiegroep ZO, DeGoedeZaak, Leitmotiv, XR en Scientists for Future.
That translates to *journalists were beaten up to keep images from the action from coming out. The action is organised by 'Geef Tegengas' (loosely translates to 'resist', literally 'give counter-gas') which is supported by 'Klimaatbeweging Fossielvrij', 'Actiegroep ZO', 'DeGoedeZaak' ('the good cause', i.e. the omnicause), Leitmotiv, XR (Extinction Rebellion, high-brow climate hysterics who regularly block motorways in the Netherlands) and 'Scientists for Future'.
Wanna bet they all pranced around with their fruit phones to record their 'rebellion'?
There's plenty of ways in the Netherlands to protest without beating up journos since a large fraction of the press tends to be on activists' side, double so for the public broadcaster NOS. They're just doing it this way because they want to be 'radical' and see themselves as 'revolutionaries' for 'the cause'. They're spoiled brats, the lot of them, playing Che Guevara in the knowledge that the Dutch authorities tend to let them off anyway.
[edit: deleted double post, that's what you get trying to post from a train in Germany where mobile networks should be declared endangered species. Quo Vadis, Wirtschaftswunder?]
But if the press tends to take their side, then why beat up the journo? Just to feel edgy?
Seems like bad tactics.
It is, bad tactics. They're caught in the 'revolutionary mood' which has set France on fire. Those journos are 'part of the establishment' after all. Well, yes, they are and also they tend to side with activists, two things can be true at the same time. There are exceptions to that rule, maybe they very selectively beat up reporters? Anyway, that's still outside the realm or 'normal protests'.
Have you ever BEEN to a protest? Especially the ones where people are doing something clearly illegal?
The nicer people will tell you to fuck off with the cameras.
The less nicer people will break your camera and/or beat you.
Yes, I have been to protests. Protests are not illegal in the Netherlands, you can go very far - especially if you protest for the 'right causes' - before you're stopped by the authorities. Protesters want to be seen protesting, that is what they do it for.
What you're describing is not protest but vandalism. The first is allowed, the second is not. That is what I said after all, that this rabble did not 'walk the path'.
But you see, it became very trendy since about 2016 or so to make "a riot is the language of the unheard" a thing again. And thus we get the 2020's protests.
These people don't care if its vandalism, its morally righteous to them, and so its not vandalism, its a humanistic protest.
> Klimaatbeweging Fossielvrij, XR, Scientists for Future
Ah yes, "rabble".
And I have no idea what an "OmniCause" is.
This is AI though. You may as well protest water being wet, or 5+8 being 13.
Besides to stop the job losses, all they really need to do is to stop the Dutch government from saving money on labor (and to stop or at least reduce importing everything from labor to software). Of course, knowing the Dutch government ... good luck. What I mean is, the problem here is not AI.
In fact AI can solve so many problems for these protestors, they just know, and I kind of agree with them here, their own government, democratic or not, will use AI against its citizens. And it being the Dutch government, especially against paying its citizens a decent wage, but also in many other ways.
The fix for this is not "stop AI". It's a decent social contract, AND it's the government actually obeying its own laws. Like national insurance actually forcing doctors to use police data in treatment decisions. Or should we call that what it actually is: the government forbidding and persecuting medical doctors for treating people for a number of things based on interactions with the police. Everything from drug arrests to being illegally in the country. It should be called that because with a national insurance, of course the insurance is just a proxy for the government, not an actual company that makes its own decisions. And once you persecute doctors for something, it isn't really their choice anymore either.
> and to stop or at least reduce importing everything from labor to software
I mean, the data center they were protesting is literally built, operated and owned by Microsoft.
I agree, AI as a technology is here to stay in some form, but wouldn't you be a little pissed if some foreign company takes your data, builds a data center in your community without you having any control, puts you out of a job and then sells your own knowledge back to you?
Doesn't sound very sovereign to me.
(Not to start with the whole angle that the AI goldrush undoes what little progress in fighting climate change was archieved)
> I mean, the data center they were protesting is literally built, operated and owned by Microsoft.
You notice I was claiming what they're doing makes no sense. What they're angry about is AI stealing jobs. And yes, Microsoft is not the problem in the labor market in the Netherlands.
If government is unwilling to meditate these kinds of conflicts then people are naturally going to take matters into their own hands, what other outcome would you expect?
Obviously the threat of prosecution wasn't enough of a deterrence so now what?
No, the country shouldn't be held hostage by a small group of agitators. They can vote like the rest of the country, and if they don't convince enough people to join their cause then they should suck it up and try to be more convincing.
They might convince a lot of people though, see the midterm outcomes in the US.
We didn't have an equivalent election here yet.
Liberal democracy sounds nice in theory but it doesn't work in practice. Like it or not populism is a powerful force that must be reckoned with, always has always will.
Liberal democracy works fine in that it makes people less miserable than the alternatives, but there are many other sources of misery from which it can't protect a society. It takes more than a good system of government for things to 'work'.
Er... About that...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
Many believe the French revolution ended long ago!
Why does a standard European keyboard have two Microsoft keys and zero Euro keys?
Probably for the same reason a standard US keyboard doesn't have dollar signs on it. My "standard" European keyboard doesn't have Microsoft logos on it.
> Probably for the same reason a standard US keyboard doesn't have dollar signs on it.
Say what? Shift-4 gives me $, on a perfectly standard US keyboard.
You have one dollar sign. Not more.
Is this the setup to some joke? There is no standard European keyboard. Netherlands uses a combination of ISO and ANSI qwerty, France Azerty, Belgium a special Belgian flavour of Azerty, Germany Qwertz, etc etc.
Also, a lot of european-country-language layouts do have a Euro currency symbol, either as modifier+number or as alt+e
Yes, there's a euro symbol printed on my E key.
[dead]